A middle ground is to not have any strict seat limits and admit any applicant who is beyond a predetermined threshold. Our university (Arizona State University) practices that and partly because of that it is now the largest non-profit university in the USA. (There are some for-profit ones with more students.) It is a state university and is ranked among the top 100 universities of the world.
There is the Swiss ETH. They are legally mandated to take any and all Swiss nationals who pass high school. How do they get around this? Well, they have an exam after the end of the first year, and kick half the people out.
@chitta: Is your university turning out graduates as successful as other universities which have stringent selection rules? If so, that woould be a remarkable achievement. @circe: but that is no credit to the university. My point is-- is it possible to take not-so-good people and make them as good as other graduates.
Being as good as other graduate doesn't need anything more than the basic IQ level, which most of the people already possess. If they have motivation to do that for whatever reason, that is completely different question. Even so called IIT's engineering degree can be gained by majority of people. Our schools and universities need to learn how to motivate children beyond some stupid exams.
Initially I thought this was a ridiculous idea too, but now I am not so sure that is necessarily a bad thing. ETH is mostly a science-tech kind of place. The way I see this procedure is that ETH says to the students, "Well, you want to join ETH, good! Come and attend the lectures for one year, and see if it is a good fit for you."
"If you don't do well, perhaps your interests lie somewhere else, and it would be better to do that rather than being unhappy the next 3-4 years studying this same stuff at a higher level."
On the other hand, at a place like ASU which commentor chitta mentioned(or Berkeley, which also is legally mandated, I think to take anyone who was in top 3 of their local high school class in California) someone who lands hoping to study Maths, but finds he likes, say, English literature better still has a lot of very good options within the university, option which would not be available to someone at ETH.
@circe: It's a good idea if the student's interests do not match that of his course. But if the student's 'level'(for want of a better word) is lower than required, will the university ensure he catches up? Is that feasible?
Yes and No, both to your question. Yes, because the university can provide a learning environment and this can motivate student to do better. I am sure, if an average Indian student ends up in IIT or Harvard, he will be a different person few years later, depending upon the inherent limitations one has. We all have that, some people are smart, but not motivated, some are persistent, some give up easily etc etc. and No, you can only bring horse near the water, but you can not make him/her drink the water if he/she doesn't wish to. So it is a two way process, but in theory if both factors are present, it is possible to make anyone a professional. And by the way, professionals are different in their skill and capacity. Not all doctors are same, and not all managers are same. So we need to acknowledge the variability within the human race.
@L: Actually IITs have been doing something similar for a while now with their preparatory courses. Here the idea is that they take a few people from the SC/ST categories who could not make it to the selected list, and give them a preparatory course of one year at one of the IITs. After successful completion of the course (which most of them do), the students then enter the main course (and most of them complete it).
Because of things like the above, even with all the brouhaha surrounding IITs being "elitist" institutions, I think they are much more diverse and inclusive than many other "less" elite Indian universities. (I don't think DU runs a preparatory course for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, for example).
@circe: Very often, the students admitted under the reserved category, cannot cope with the academic schedule and at the end of 3 sem, they leave. (in my days,the rule was - if you fail 3 sems in a row, you had to leave) I don't know how it is now-- maybe the prep courses help reduce this number. Still, I don't think the IITs, really make you discover your inner potential. You do well if you are good; if not you fade away. The system is cruel to the academically weak, as maybe, it should be if you want a good institution. @Rainbow Scientist: Yes. Can an institution provide this open, encouraging environment? It's an ideal perhaps.
10 comments:
A middle ground is to not have any strict seat limits and admit any applicant who is beyond a predetermined threshold. Our university (Arizona State University) practices that and partly because of that it is now the largest non-profit university in the USA. (There are some for-profit ones with more students.) It is a state university and is ranked among the top 100 universities of the world.
There is the Swiss ETH. They are legally mandated to take any and all Swiss nationals who pass high school. How do they get around this? Well, they have an exam after the end of the first year, and kick half the people out.
@chitta: Is your university turning out graduates as successful as other universities which have stringent selection rules? If so, that woould be a remarkable achievement.
@circe: but that is no credit to the university. My point is-- is it possible to take not-so-good people and make them as good as other graduates.
Being as good as other graduate doesn't need anything more than the basic IQ level, which most of the people already possess. If they have motivation to do that for whatever reason, that is completely different question. Even so called IIT's engineering degree can be gained by majority of people. Our schools and universities need to learn how to motivate children beyond some stupid exams.
@rainbow scientist:
Motivation is one thing. There are other skills for a successful career. What can an institution do to instil these skills?
@L
Initially I thought this was a ridiculous idea too, but now I am not so sure that is necessarily a bad thing. ETH is mostly a science-tech kind of place. The way I see this procedure is that ETH says to the students, "Well, you want to join ETH, good! Come and attend the lectures for one year, and see if it is a good fit for you."
"If you don't do well, perhaps your interests lie somewhere else, and it would be better to do that rather than being unhappy the next 3-4 years studying this same stuff at a higher level."
On the other hand, at a place like ASU which commentor chitta mentioned(or Berkeley, which also is legally mandated, I think to take anyone who was in top 3 of their local high school class in California) someone who lands hoping to study Maths, but finds he likes, say, English literature better still has a lot of very good options within the university, option which would not be available to someone at ETH.
@circe: It's a good idea if the student's interests do not match that of his course. But if the student's 'level'(for want of a better word) is lower than required, will the university ensure he catches up? Is that feasible?
Yes and No, both to your question. Yes, because the university can provide a learning environment and this can motivate student to do better. I am sure, if an average Indian student ends up in IIT or Harvard, he will be a different person few years later, depending upon the inherent limitations one has. We all have that, some people are smart, but not motivated, some are persistent, some give up easily etc etc.
and No, you can only bring horse near the water, but you can not make him/her drink the water if he/she doesn't wish to. So it is a two way process, but in theory if both factors are present, it is possible to make anyone a professional. And by the way, professionals are different in their skill and capacity. Not all doctors are same, and not all managers are same. So we need to acknowledge the variability within the human race.
@L: Actually IITs have been doing something similar for a while now with their preparatory courses. Here the idea is that they take a few people from the SC/ST categories who could not make it to the selected list, and give them a preparatory course of one year at one of the IITs. After successful completion of the course (which most of them do), the students then enter the main course (and most of them complete it).
Because of things like the above, even with all the brouhaha surrounding IITs being "elitist" institutions, I think they are much more diverse and inclusive than many other "less" elite Indian universities. (I don't think DU runs a preparatory course for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, for example).
@circe: Very often, the students admitted under the reserved category, cannot cope with the academic schedule and at the end of 3 sem, they leave. (in my days,the rule was - if you fail 3 sems in a row, you had to leave) I don't know how it is now-- maybe the prep courses help reduce this number. Still, I don't think the IITs, really make you discover your inner potential. You do well if you are good; if not you fade away. The system is cruel to the academically weak, as maybe, it should be if you want a good institution.
@Rainbow Scientist: Yes. Can an institution provide this open, encouraging environment? It's an ideal perhaps.
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